Kenshin vs. Shisio fight

[Demon]

I'm a new member to this board and I've been exploring some of the posts here...and many ppl have been talking about how Shisio is a better fighter than Kenshin.
Now I want to state my opinion on that.

What if Kenshin wouldn't have been injured before he fought Shisio? huh?
I mean Kenshin was fighting him for 10 minutes when he was injured and he surely would last those 15 minutes if he wouldn't have been injured!

So to sum things up, Kenshin is a better swordsman than Shisio...one could argue that Shisio is better than Kenshin if we dont count that 15 minute limit thing...but then we would also have to turn Kenshin's handicap off...wich is of course using a reverse-bladed sword...

[theberserkgatsu]

reverse bladed sword=not a handicap
look at it like this
reversed blade-disables opponent never able to wield sword again
katana-kills opponent
conclusion-opponent cant fight u in either cir***stance

shisio Beat kenshin....one on one....and if not for the interference of the other 3...he would have killed him and that would be that.......shisio is probably the only enemy kenshin didnt have a clear victory against...also saitou was a draw...so besides those 2 fights...kenshin has beaten everyone hes fought...but shisio beat him in like 3 moves...unfortunately takin 2 eps to do so but so what....he would have killed kenshin..point blank
(tetsuo this is one of the few times i will agree with you)

[Demon]

Originally posted by theberserkgatsu
reverse bladed sword=not a handicap
look at it like this
reversed blade-disables opponent never able to wield sword again
katana-kills opponent
conclusion-opponent cant fight u in either cir***stance

shisio Beat kenshin....one on one....and if not for the interference of the other 3...he would have killed him and that would be that.......shisio is probably the only enemy kenshin didnt have a clear victory against...also saitou was a draw...so besides those 2 fights...kenshin has beaten everyone hes fought...but shisio beat him in like 3 moves...unfortunately takin 2 eps to do so but so what....he would have killed kenshin..point blank
(tetsuo this is one of the few times i will agree with you)

I was actually asking what you guys think would happen if Kenshin wouldn't have been as INJURED as he was...his injuries were affecting him and thus he whould've lasted longer against Shisio if he wouldn't have been injured before...

[shinigami]

.... Shishio's injuries were holding him back to (his injuries from the burns, of course). What if he wasn't injured? Then he wouldn't have ... well, blown up. :p Just pointing out something. ^^

[Mr. Knobsworth]

if shisho didn't have all those burns he'd be more pathetic, he gets all his strength from his high body heat.

[Akagami No Steven]

I'm sorry, but I find all statements like "What if Kenshin didn't have a sakabatou, or what if Kenshin wasn't injured before hand?" to be totally irrelevant.  What happened happened, and nothing else was a possibility.

Even if we go to the extreme of posing "What if's" Watsuki even said Shishio was a better fighter than Kenshin, and I can't find more obvious support for that argument other than the huge struggle Kenshin has when fighting Shishio.

I think it was some guy named Nick, or something like that, who posted a great point about balance between a fighter's mental and physical capabilities.  He touched on the fact that Shishio had excellent physical capabilities, even though they were limited.  At the same time, his mind was, for all intents and purposes, weak, as he could only act upon his own warped sense of a food chain(which I agree with, by the way), and had no moral or ethic code to drive off of.

Kenshin on the other hand, had a genuine balance between his set moral standards, and awesome fighting capabilities.  Thus he was resolved in whatever he did, so he could determine a more definite outcome when he fought.  

At least that was what I gathered from Nick's(?) post, and I fully support it.

[Hitokiri J]

What if Kenshin had not been injured prior to the fight? I think the duel wouldve been much more enjoyable. I thinkt the most interesting what if in Kenshin would be: What if Kenshin and Shishio fought each other during the Bakumatsu while they were both Hitokiris? Personally, Id bet my money on Kenshin. Shishio is too obsessed with himself anyway
In fact, I think the bullet to his head scrambled his brains a wee bit. His real objective can be seen as an attempt to evolve the human species further in a more primitive way. Natural selection is an effective but unfair process. I would only agree with it in the case of animals, where predators are common. But humans arent exactly an endangered species so Id have to agree with shishios ideal completely. argh...damn i lost my train of thought again. This stupid series makes me think almost as much as Eva and thats a bad thing! Damn these psychological cartoons!!

"If you find yourself in a life and death situation, consumed by fear and surrounded by bullets, take a look at the worm-filled, rotting corpse that remains of your best friend. You'll know what to do."

[Demon]

Originally posted by Akagami No Steven
I'm sorry, but I find all statements like "What if Kenshin didn't have a sakabatou, or what if Kenshin wasn't injured before hand?" to be totally irrelevant.  What happened happened, and nothing else was a possibility.

I agree on that, I was mainly posting this because many are posting comments like "Kenshin is just a wuss compaired to Shisio, he didnt even win!"
My point is that if you look at it that way, Shisio was definetly a wuss too...letting his underlings fight Kenshin so he would be tired and injured and not being able to surprise him with new techniques.

Even if we go to the extreme of posing "What if's" Watsuki even said Shishio was a better fighter than Kenshin, and I can't find more obvious support for that argument other than the huge struggle Kenshin has when fighting Shishio.

He actually said that? THAT I didnt know...

[Kma]

dude, flat out, regardless of injuries, Kenshin could not beat shishi-o in a fair fight. Shishi-o was to strong for a kenshin who wasn't completely focuesed, who had yet to find his answer for atonement, and who was still confliced between his past and his future. I love kenshin. i like his charecter ALOT more than shishi-o, but as sad as it is to say: shishio would 0wnz0rs kenshin h4rdc0r3. no contest. kenshin wouldn't be able to do the damage to shishio to put him down for the count with a reverse blade sword, shishio's stamina was just inhuman. He could take ever one of kenshins attacks and get up, and once kenshin exhausted all his attacks, then what? we all know that only unique attacks can hurt shishio...
HOWEVER (a few what if scenarios)
WI: kenshin & shishio fought in the bakematsu?: Ken trounces makoto. shishio hadn't mastered his body nor been nearly killed, he wouldn't stand a chance.
WI: kenshin used a katana?: (as loathe as i hate these questions, i'll answer anyway) ken kills shishio. he hit with the ryu tsui sen = shishio chopped in half. :p

[Demon]

Originally posted by Kmaasmd
dude, flat out, regardless of injuries, Kenshin could not beat shishi-o in a fair fight. Shishi-o was to strong for a kenshin who wasn't completely focuesed, who had yet to find his answer for atonement, and who was still confliced between his past and his future. I love kenshin. i like his charecter ALOT more than shishi-o, but as sad as it is to say: shishio would 0wnz0rs kenshin h4rdc0r3. no contest. kenshin wouldn't be able to do the damage to shishio to put him down for the count with a reverse blade sword, shishio's stamina was just inhuman. He could take ever one of kenshins attacks and get up, and once kenshin exhausted all his attacks, then what? we all know that only unique attacks can hurt shishio...
HOWEVER (a few what if scenarios)
WI: kenshin & shishio fought in the bakematsu?: Ken trounces makoto. shishio hadn't mastered his body nor been nearly killed, he wouldn't stand a chance.
WI: kenshin used a katana?: (as loathe as i hate these questions, i'll answer anyway) ken kills shishio. he hit with the ryu tsui sen = shishio chopped in half. :p

You make a valid point about Kenshin being conflicted...but about Shisio's stamina...it's good up to a point...up to that point when he combusted because of the extreme heat of his body...and if Kenshin would still be standing when he would combust like in the series then Kenshin would be the victor...

[Hitenjin]

Watsuki even said Saitoh was a better fighter than Kenshin, and that I'll most certainly agree with. But the reason Kenshin always comes out on top is because he won't allow himself to die as long as his friends need to be protected. Willpower, you could call it- he even tells Shishio "pain from numerous wounds can be tolerated with willpower and determination." And after that he gave him a hefty Kuzu Ryu Sen. I'd give him the nod for beating Shishio even if he isn't better.

[nicknomo]

I think it was some guy named Nick, or something like that, who posted a great point about balance between a fighter's mental and physical capabilities.  He touched on the fact that Shishio had excellent physical capabilities, even though they were limited.  At the same time, his mind was, for all intents and purposes, weak, as he could only act upon his own warped sense of a food chain(which I agree with, by the way), and had no moral or ethic code to drive off of.

Kenshin on the other hand, had a genuine balance between his set moral standards, and awesome fighting capabilities.  Thus he was resolved in whatever he did, so he could determine a more definite outcome when he fought.  

At least that was what I gathered from Nick's post, and I fully support it. [/B]

Yep, you got my name right :clown ;  I really think Watsuki had a lot to say when making kenshin, and really developed the characters and the kenshin universe;  I think a lot of it is hidden by the captivating storyline. I think this is one of the things that was developed with a lot of detail.. The whole concept of balance, and what is needed to achieve maximum strength with the sword ...

The shishio saga was a strong testament to this.. IMO, Kenshin was able to surpass his limits (and shishio wasn't) because of his moral and mental strenghts..  And that was the determining factor.

Shishio was physically stronger and had a lot of powerful skills.
But dont forget the same thing that gave him all of his physical strength, was also a big weakness.  He needed to pass his limits like kenshin in order did to win, and he couldnt do that because he was so unbalanced (mentally and morally weak).  Kenshin, although by no means perfect was in a better balance of physical and emotional state.  Thats why he won.. and I'd say that is just as important as anything when it comes down to being a better fighter..  

The deciding factor probably was the Ougi. This allowed kenshin to reach a higher level of physical ability, despite his vow not to kill.  Also, it helped him emotionally since he understood his desire to live on.  Since Kenshin was now in a better shape morally and mentally (dont forget shishio was actually a bit psycho), Shishio needed to bring it up a notch to beat kenshin now... but he couldnt hold it together, he had nothing mentally or emotionally to drive off of (unlike kenshin).  And the rest is kenshin histroy..

But I suppose if you want to do the what if scenarios and say

1) kenshin wasn't hurt when he went into the fight.

I think it would have ended the exact same way.  The other 3 would not have needed to make up for the lost stamina, and it would have just unfolded without the other three intervening.  

2) Kenshin fought with a katana.

 In order for this to happen, Kenshin would either need to be the BattaouSai, OR in a balanced state like his master.  It would be a very close fight if he was the BattaouSai I think.  If you think about it, they would be very much alike.  I'd actually say shishio, because he probably would have a physical advantage and Kenshin would have nothing to drive off of.

If he was in a balanced state like Hiko, then he should have the emotional resolve to be able to kill, and would fight with the true strength of the HMR (both physical and mental).  He would wipe the floor with Shishio.

[Demon]

You said it Nick!
It'll be interesting to see an arguement against this.

[Kma]

i agree with what y'all are saying but my point is that kenshin was the victor, yet he didn't beat shishio.
how to explain this...
shishio killed himself, because he couldn't match kenshin constantly upping the physical ante` of the fight, however based upon swordmanship, kenshin didn't and couldn't defeat shishio at that point. and i think watsuki ended the fight that way to show that kenshin'd determination to protect people could allow him to win EVEN against those fighters that outclass him, which at that point, was shishio.

[Laoking2k]

I say Hiko Seijurou will own them both