Killing Younglings (Exceedingly Gross)

[Amethyst]

Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene

Safety

The pyrolysis of PTFE is detectable at 200 °C (392 °F), and it evolves several fluorocarbon gases[10][11] and a sublimate. Animal studies indicate that it is unlikely that these products would be generated in amounts significant to health at temperatures below 250 °C (482 °F),[12] although birds are proven to be much more sensitive to these decomposition products.[11][13]

While PTFE is stable and nontoxic, it begins to deteriorate after the temperature of cookware reaches about 260 °C (500 °F), and decomposes above 350 °C (662 °F).[14] These degradation byproducts can be lethal to birds, and can cause flu-like symptoms in humans.[14]

Meat is usually fried between 200–230 °C (392–446 °F), and most oils will start to smoke before a temperature of 260°C is reached, but there are at least two cooking oils (safflower oil and avocado oil) that have a higher smoke point than 260°C. Empty cookware can also exceed this temperature upon heating.

A 1959 study (conducted before the U.S. Food and Drug Administration approved the material for use in food processing equipment) showed that the toxicity of fumes given off by the coated pan on dry heating was less than that of fumes given off by ordinary cooking oils.[15]

In closing, common sense holds true: Never leave a flame unattended, never walk away from pan that is on the fire, don't keep pet birds in the kitchen (DUH!). If in doubt, make sure your range hood is in good working order and use it every time you use the range. 

There's nothing wrong with Teflon. I use non-sticks for eggs and bacon and they work wonderfully in those applications. For any direct heat cooking application where carmelization is desired, stainless steel, aluminum, or cast iron would be better choices.

LM - so sorry you had to clean that up. I would have definitely tossed the diaper, but I'd be right there with you in cleaning and sanitizing the cookware and flooring.

A range hood will not sufficiently vent the fumes from the rest of the house.  Almost all of the bird deaths were not in the kitchen area to begin with, but in other areas of the houses, including upstairs. 

Nothing wrong with Teflon?  EPA doesn't seem to think that.. and neither should we since 95% of us now have it in our systems and it won't break down and it won't go away.  See links below...

"On April 28, Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) Administrative Law Judge Barbara A. Gunning granted EPA and DuPont until August 15 to formally announce their deal. DuPont's indestructible, toxic Teflon chemical is in the blood of over 95 percent of Americans."

http://www.ewg.org/node/8766

http://www.ewg.org/node/8739

http://www.ewg.org/node/8749

From the looks of it, plastic isn't that great of a thing either!!  It's little wonder so many people are sick!!  If it's not the pesticides in the foods we eat, it's the chemicals in the pans and stuff we use to cook them with!!   Or the air we breathe, the water we drink... it is amazing we live as long as we do!! 

Oh well.. here's to your health!! May you live a long and happy life!!

[Gaelin]

Amethyst. Please, for the love of god, check your sources. Those articles may hold some truth, but they are also swimming in bias; they're also old and now irrelevant. And the thing that bothers me the most is the complete lack of footnotes from that site. I have no idea where the information came from because I cannot trace it and verify the data. That's a bad source, end of story. Here's something I just pulled off the FAQ for the Enviornmental Protection Agency website:

Are there steps that consumers can take to reduce their exposure to PFOA?
Consumer products made with perfluorochemicals include some non-stick cookware and products such as breathable, all-weather clothing. They are also employed in hundreds of other uses in almost all industry segments, including the aerospace, automotive, building/construction, chemical processing, electrical and electronics, semiconductor, and textile industries. Telomers are used as surfactants and as surface treatment chemicals in many products, including fire fighting foams; personal care and cleaning products; and oil, stain, grease, and water repellent coatings on carpet, textiles, leather, and paper. Consumer products made with fluoropolymers and fluorinated telomers, such as Teflon and other trademark products, are not PFOA. PFOA is used as a processing aid in the manufacture of fluoropolymers and can be also be produced by the breakdown of some fluorinated telomers. The information that EPA has available does not indicate that the routine use of consumer products poses a concern. At present, there are no steps that EPA recommends that consumers take to reduce exposures to PFOA.

I'll be the first to say that all this might change at any time the EPA decides it needs money or determines there is some serious risk, but for now this is how it stands. If you don't like something, don't use it. Some good news: looks like the chemical PFOA does leave our systems after awhile, there's some new data (on that watchdog site of yours-of all places) that has found more than a 30% decrease in PFOA levels in the bloodstream from the levels found in 2004.

I want to know more about these dead birds. I want some facts and documentation regarding their deaths before I jump to any conclusions. How old were they? Where did they reside in the house (how many linear feet from a range)? How often did the family cook at home? How often were non-stick pans used to prepare food? What model range hood is installed in the house? Was it in use when the death occurred? Was there any other type of ventilation system in use at and leading up to the time of death? Were the birds in good health up to the time of death? Are there any PFOA-related items kept in the same room as the bird? What species of bird? There's just too much information we don't have.

[Amethyst]

You didn't read any of the reports in the links, every one of them states where the birds were in the house, approximately how long they were exposed to the fumes from non-stick cookware and vets reports on the hemorrhaging of their air sacs with plenty of tests post mortum.

Even taking out the EWG (Environmental Working Group that works to protect kids from toxic chemicals in our food, water, air and the products we use every day) references still leave me with plenty of sources:

http://www.parrotparrot.com/category/articles/toxin-alert-stories/

How about veterinarian accounts of teflon poisoning in birds? You don't consider those valid sources??

http://www.parrotparrot.com/articles/toxin-alert-stories/veterinary-references-on-teflon-toxicity/#more-238

http://www.northwestbirdclub.org/nonstick.htm

Other links:

http://tuberose.com/Teflon.html

http://naturalhealthezine.com/teflon-coated-skillets-are-they-dangerous/

These links document humans becoming sick from teflon poisoning, not just birds!  You want to believe it's safe because the EPA doesn't do anything about it, that's up to you... Just remember that Dupont settled out of court about it with the EPA....  I'm just putting out the information that teflon and all other non-stick pans and such emit fumes that will kill birds instantly... it's been documented, over and over and over again.

The EPA is only concerned with the environment, not what it may do to people who cook with it... as a matter of fact, they haven't even concluded their risk assessment yet, even though they've received a chunk of change from Dupont who knew there was a risk to humans from it 20 years ago!

See this link: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/12/14/business/main1124537.shtml

We all know that the FDA can and does make mistakes on certifying something as safe like falidimide that produced severe birth defects in children or any of a ton of medicines on the market today that have been removed because of adverse reactions to them so just because the FDA approved it, doesn't mean it's safe.  Look how long it took to realize that lead in paints wasn't safe, or asbestos in any form wasn't safe.  Do you really want to wait that long for them to actually declare that Teflon isn't safe to cook with?

As I stated, I don't use it... and I stated why I don't use it, it has been proven to kill birds, and it also makes people sick.  Enough cases have been documented on both accounts that prove this. 

[marka]

What about T-Fal? Is it supposed to have the same problems as Teflon?

I don't know, is it non-stick?  It does appear to be about the same thing as the Teflon (brand name) cookware...so personally I wouldn't take the chance.. shrug...

I looked into T-Fal, and yeah, that's Teflon too.  Funny how the packaging for T-Fal doesn't mention that. For somebody like me, who isn't the best cook and can overheat stuff or grab metal utensils instead of wooden ones when needing to flip something in a pan, T-Fal seems the wrong choice. It pisses me off that nothing on T-Fal packaging that I've seen, on pans I've bought, has mentioned Teflon.  

Re Teflon: Duh ... I had no idea that DuPont was so strongly linked in with Teflon. As that company is akin to Satan, I wouldn't believe a fucking word they say about anything unless it's something to benefit DuPont (or pressed out of them by law). That they were fined $16+ million for trying to cover up info is less damage to them than you or I dropping a piece of lint in a Salvation Army bucket. What a joke. I can't imagine what kind of deals went down behind closed doors.   

Myself, I don't trust Teflon as it is. Now that I know it's made by DuPont in this country, I really don't trust it.

It's amazing how old-time materials for cooking and whatnot often tend to look so wise. Like using cast-iron pans. From what I've read, they're supposed to be good for you. Or using glass containers for food storage. Now we have this awful plastic that seems to just get smellier and cheaper in quality. The outgasing of that stuff ... soft plastic ... can be scary.

I recently needed to get a new Mr. Coffee ... I usually buy the el cheapo $18 ones, which last me no longer than 2 years ... and found that the el cheapo model is now made of soft plastic. The plastic was so bad, stunk so much, I had to return the coffee-maker. I mean, WTF! Same thing happened with a Black and Decker rice cooker/steamer. Old model, nice. New model, soft plastic. A fucking 8-year-old could probably tell you something's wrong, yet the manufacturers of this shit are so dazzled by huge profits (having also fled to China) they don't care.

That said, I guess everyone has a right to choose their poison.

I wonder if Calphalon cookware (anodized aluminium) is any good ... as I know myself. If I bought cast-iron pans, they'd end up a mess of rust.     

[Lady Macbeth]

Cast iron cookware actually puts more iron in the food you eat, so they're great if you're anemic.

We need a cast iron pan. I look at flea markets and such since those would already be seasoned, but maybe it would be safer to get a new one...?

[Scott]

This took an unexpected turn.

[Lady Macbeth]

Holy Mother of God, yesterday I ducked into the kitchen to put some mac and cheese in the microwave (90 seconds, tops) for lunch, and when I peered into the dining room he was sitting in the center of the dining room table, examining some coupons I'd left there.

Superstition says c-section babies are especially strong (true).

Supposedly they are also especially lucky (God, I hope so. He's going to need it).

[Amethyst]

laugh... LM means you won't be able to turn your back on him ever again!!  Just kidding!!  But it does mean you'll have to keep an eye on him just the same... nothing like being a paranoid mom!!  Course these days you about have to be!!   

[Gaelin]

Just make sure all the sharp objects are out of reach. 

Amethyst: to clarify, Dupont warns consumers on their site about the risks of overheating pans and the dangers posed to pet birds from breathing fumes from overheated non-stick pans. My main gripe is that most of those accounts lacked critical information (and yes, I did read them. I then re-read them after the accusations in your last post in case I missed something). Those cases that were complete enough to be ruled absolutely as death by teflon toxicity seemed to point largely at human error that resulted in the release of toxic compounds (the one that stands out in opposition to this is the Amana oven case, which still lacks a lot of information). A few of those people made mistakes not once, but several times and lost several birds in the process. These are the people I wonder about. 

These links are much better, btw. Tuberose is pretty good, though I'm still not sure how up to date the article itself is, it is definitely more recent than the other links. Also, they name the studies they pulled data from, definitely easier to track. Even then, I still can't find anything here or elsewhere that indicates Teflon to be deadly to humans. There are lots of mentionings of the flu-like symptoms reported by people who have mis-used their cookware, but many substances become toxic and dangerous when overheated, just like non-stick cookware.

The only thing I could find does not cite Teflon specifically, but rather one of the chemicals used to produce it. This report can be found here: http://www.epa.gov/opptintr/pfoa/pubs/pfoarisk.pdf Findings from these tests suggest PFOA may result in decreased fertility in women and may or may not be linked to certain types of cancer in males (probably not, there is not enough data to draw conclusions). There was a slight increase in cholesterol levels of male factory workers, but it likely has little to do with exposure to PFOA and more to do with diet and genes. Admittedly, it's a very long report and I only skimmed it - I did not go over the tables and all of the findings, but I did read the sections on reproduction, kidney, and liver function, and the incidence of cancers and mortality. Even then, it's only about 20% or so of the report and there may be information missing. It is also worth noting that the findings in the report are from tests conducted on monkeys and rats, not humans; though the cancer stats were taken from workers in manufacturing facilities.

I respect that you have made your decision to not use teflon in your household, and as you are a bird lover, I can understand and respect that decision. I however, will continue to use my non-stick pans for eggs and bacon (I don't use them for much else, preferring stainless steel and cast iron for most of my cooking). As a professional cook, I take my cooking very seriously and respect my tools. I keep my non-stick pans in excellent condition, use low to medium heat only with them, and never use metal utensils in them. Once a non-stick pan becomes scratched, it goes in the trash. So far, I have not had to toss any of them. My newest non-stick pans are about 15 years old and are still in excellent condition. I would never ever let them get to the point where they resembled that thing Scott posted. I should also state that as a professional cook, I have used pans in commercial kitchens in far worse condition than the one posted - not by choice, but out of necessity. Diners beware.

Marka: Anodized Aluminum is a very good choice, as is stainless steel. Avoid cooking and storing acidic foods in Aluminum (use stainless steel or glass for these) because they can leach aluminum out of the cookware and into your food (likely not a dangerous dosage, but it will alter the flavor significantly). I don't know about the old ways of cooking being much better for us: tin and copper can be toxic, as well as lead crystal, pewter, enamelware, and some pottery (toxic glazes). If anything, we're no better off, we're just destroying the enviornment a little faster than we were before. When in doubt, start a pyrex collection; it's very sturdy, very safe, and very beautiful. 

[Amethyst]

I didn't say that teflon non stick cookware has killed any humans, I said it has been proven to kill birds... and not just from human error... the fumes from the manufacturing plants have killed wild birds! 

After reading this article, it doesn't look like too many pans are good for cooking in... although my salad master stainless steel ones certainly rank among the top! 

http://www.healthychoicesbc.com/Raw%20for%2030/Health%20.htm

The point is it only takes 2 to 5 minutes for Teflon non-stick cookware to reach 700 degrees Fahrenheit, releasing 15 harmful gasses and chemicals including 2 carcinogens, it has been proven and documented (see link above or do a search on it).  Even Dupont had information stating that 464 degrees Fahrenheit will release toxic fumes that will kill birds.  So it's not just a question of human error now, it is a fault with the coating and as such should be listed as a warning on anything that contains Teflon that may be heated.

The above link has plenty of documented sources listed there. 

You're welcome to use your non-stick cookware all you want. Information is the point here... I don't care what you use.  I want people to be aware of the dangers of non-stick cookware to birds, and any baby bird I sell goes with that warning in print!  Can you honestly say you knew that before I mentioned it???  How about anybody else? 

[Gaelin]

Regarding informing the public of the dangers that superheated non-stick cookware poses to birds, you've succeeded. I still think there's a lot of human error going on, and it seems that some species must be more fragile than others. None of ours ever had any problems whatsoever, all of them lived long, healthy lives amidst daily exposure to teflon and the added bonus of sharing a room with a pack-and-a-half-a-day smoker. *shrug*

The point is it only takes 2 to 5 minutes for Teflon non-stick cookware to reach 700 degrees Fahrenheit, releasing 15 harmful gasses and chemicals including 2 carcinogens, it has been proven and documented (see link above or do a search on it).  Even Dupont had information stating that 464 degrees Fahrenheit will release toxic fumes that will kill birds.  So it's not just a question of human error now, it is a fault with the coating and as such should be listed as a warning on anything that contains Teflon that may be heated.

I don't put too much stock in that demo. I know the findings are true, but I feel that it's kind of an unrealistic scenario. Overheating a pan is human error. Firstly, no pan (excepting cast iron for its poor conductivity) should be pre-heated for 2 minutes, that's way too long. Most people know this, even if they are not aware that they do. 2 minutes of preheating on my stove (even at low heat) would thouroughly destroy my cookware and likely set my house on fire. Preheating a pan is a way to ensure carmelization and even cooking of its contents. Non-stick pans are difficult to caramelize anything in, so it stands to reason that these pans don't really need to be preheated. Now, 464 degrees F is above normal cooking temperatures. Indeed, it is far above the smoke point of most household cooking oils. Any person who sees smoke issuing from a pan and does not move it off the heat to cool down is an idiot. No pan, non-stick or otherwise, should ever get to 600 degrees.

I'm pretty sure some products carry safety info about not overheating the pans (at least the more expensive boxed items), but other brands may not, and probably don't since there is no law in place that requires such a redundancy. I have never seen any warning specifically regarding pet birds. I don't feel it's necessary to print it on the product, just like printing "don't feed this to your dog" on a chocolate bar is unnecessary.

[Amethyst]

I still think there's a lot of human error going on, and it seems that some species must be more fragile than others. None of ours ever had any problems whatsoever, all of them lived long, healthy lives amidst daily exposure to teflon and the added bonus of sharing a room with a pack-and-a-half-a-day smoker. *shrug*

How do you explain human error when 100 wild birds died in a 700 foot radius of a teflon manufacturing plant?  And that's one incident, the link lists 2.

http://www.ewg.org/node/22748

What you may deem a long and healthy life may not have been anywhere near that species life expectancy...

Parakeets 10 years is normal
Cockatiels 12 to 15 years or more, can live up to 30 years
African Greys 40 to 60 years or more
Cockatoos/Amazons around 75 or more
Macaws 75 and up

http://www.petyak.com/birds/health/life-expectancy-of-parrots.aspx

I've also had a bourkes parakeet die the next day from cigarette smoke blown into its face.

Granted, the smaller the bird, the more delicate its respiratory system is, but with teflon fumes it doesn't matter, once it has been exposed, there is little hope of saving the bird even with immediate emergency vet care.

it's not just non stick pans that overheat, it is drip pans on a stove, space heaters coated with non stick, light bulbs coated with it, curling irons, oven drip pans, cookie sheets.  All of those items aren't typically observed before use or while being used other than maybe a curling iron.  And none of them should ever reach the heating point where fumes are emitted, but they do.


Again, 2 to 5 minutes overheats a teflon pan releasing toxins:

http://www.highcountryconservation.org/pdf/Microsoft%20Word%20-%20TOXIC%20TEFLON.pdf

Here, you'll like this, a controlled study of Teflon fumes on birds and other animals with even more links, including a human who died from it! (under Blood the first example)

http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/epage.teflon.htm

I don't think it's just human error.  Which is the whole point, it is a problem with the chemicals used to make the teflon non stick coating.

[Gaelin]

How do you explain human error when 100 wild birds died in a 700 foot radius of a teflon manufacturing plant?  And that's one incident, the link lists 2.

I don't have to explain it, I was never addressing it in the first place because it concerns manufacturing, not everyday use of the product. The second instance also cites that the coating became overheated (to 880 degrees F) on the day in question, which would explain the deaths. Also, these articles are from 1996 and 1997, roughly 10 years before the EPA's stewardship program began.

What you may deem a long and healthy life may not have been anywhere near that species life expectancy...

That feels as little condescending. As I said, a long and healthy life. According to your numbers, all but 2 of my birds exceeded their average life expectancies. The 2 that didn't nearly managed it. One parakeet decided to lay an egg and ejected her uterus, she was about 10 years old at the time though. The other (about 5 or 6 years old) escaped during a move (I'm sure he didn't survive long in the wild). Our cockatiel finally passed a couple years ago, after 20 years in our care, we have no idea how old he was when we found him, but he already knew 2 tv theme songs.   

Here, you'll like this, a controlled study of Teflon fumes on birds and other animals with even more links, including a human who died from it! (under Blood the first example)

http://www.fluoridealert.org/pesticides/epage.teflon.htm

The first abstract lacks critical information regarding the study. The 2nd and 3rd explicitly state that the pans were overheated.

The man who died of pulmonary oedema was a worker in a manufacturing plant. There is not enough information available here concerning safety precautions or exposure of the 3 workers who got sick, let alone temperature or ventilation. While PTFE has been implicated in his death, I'd be really curious to see the autopsy findings and get more information on the working conditions. The information is also from 1997 though, and is likely no longer relevant to current manufacturing processes. All 3 abstracts regard manufacturing workers, and the other two are from 1992 and 1994. The 3rd cites that formaldehyde was also in use at the textile manufacturer, and that could have impacted the man's health as well.

Manufacturing processes are certain to be more dangerous because the PTFE must be heated to be applied to the finished product. There is also greater risk for exposure to PFOA, though there should be far less chance of PFOA exposure now compared to 2006 and prior. I'm sure there are other toxic or potentially dangerous substances involved in the manufacturing process of non-stick items (just as there are toxic and potentially dangerous substances involved in the manufacturing of most things), and it makes the case for proper safety protocol.

[Amethyst]

No more condescending than you stating I should check my sources, and stating that anything EWG linked wasn't a valid source, or couldn't be verified. 

I more than proved the point that Teflon/non stick cookware can and does emit dangerous fumes that do kill birds.  If it does that, then we are also breathing in those toxins.  If you choose to willing continue to do so, that is your choice, but I wanted LM to be aware of it because Space Monkey will soon be eating regular food, and it may well be something she would like to know before then!  The public has a right to know the possible dangers from Teflon.

The fact that Dupont knew about it, and hid it from the public speaks for itself.  The EPA has asked Dupont to phase out Teflon compound completely by 2015, although they have stated it may not be possible and so what then?  Let it pass because they don't have a substitute for it??

http://www.infinitehealthresources.com/Store/Resource/Article/1-4/2/290.html

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,183037,00.html

Here is a link to a list of all the compounds Dupont would have us to believe is safe in Teflon, including their cover up of it from their own investigations of it!

http://environmentalchemistry.com/yogi/environmental/200603tefloncoverup.html

Pay particular attention to page 3 with the list of compounds.  I have learned more than I care to about Teflon cookware, besides the obvious danger it poses to birds.  I'm done with it.