The new anti-"terror" bill

[Akagami No Steven]

To be fair (and I usually don't like to), I think Papercut wasn't actually saying that the Bush administration plotted 9/11 (although she probably believes differently?) but that they capitalized on the fact that it happened.

Example:

Like, let's say a hot Mexican girl stubs her toe, and I have a foot fetish.  I then suck her toe to make it feel better.  I didn't have any hand in her actually hurting her toe, but I took advantage of the injured toe to get the sucking I wanted done.

[Jeff B]

there's no doubt about the fact that the bush administration has used 9/11 to their advantage.

almost every speech in the past 5 years...9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 9/11 relentlessly.  fact.  capitalizing on people's fear and emotions to pass shady legislation and get things done that might not have gotten done otherwise.

[Kma]

Originally posted by Shinsuke
Before I say this Kssamd I'm no cooroborating 9/11 conspiracy
therioes I'm just saying we should be watchful:


Although I agree with you that 9/11 was almost certainly not perpatrated by the government, You have to remember however that people in power are often ruthless and evil. Stalin is a perfect example many Russians even after  his death always felt Stalin was a good leader and eveerything that went wrong was his advisors ( who he often killed) fault. This we know now is not the case

It is both very dangerous and foolish to blindly follow a leader or political party.The nature of powerful people is the craving of more power you have some you want more even the best intentions can go crooked overtime, that said that's not always the case.


So although I agree with you about 9/11 keep in mind just becasue they're powerful and voted democratically we should
always be on wtach on those with power becasue the nature of power cuases corruption and evil.Just beacuse it sounds bad doesn't mean it not's true that said 9/11 conspiracy therioes are ludacris.

i wasn't posting that out of blind faith, I was saying that killing hundreds of innocent americans was not on the september 11 itinerary in washington. and insinuating that any member of our government, regardless of political party, could have had a hand in it offends me as an american. not as a republican.

as i said, paper didn't outright say that they did, but the way she phrased it toed the line a bit.

...wasn't trying to stir up a hornet's nest here, nor prolong a debate or incite diatribes, I was pointing out to paper, that of all the things we've butted heads with, and all the opinions we disagree with, that was the only thing she's ever posted that came close to offending me.

[Papercut]

Holy moly! This is going to take a while to respond to.

Kmaasmd: Well, regardless of my respect and liking for you (and therefore my desire not to upset you) don't take me wrong but I don't exist not to offend people. It's far, far too late in the game for that, peeps.

My second point, before I go into all of this, is to clarify that I'm not saying that I believe, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the Bush regime caused 9/11. However as it's has shown itself to be completely amoral and to have no moral compunction to save life, even American lives (the primary example being and Afghanistan) I would say it's certainly well within the realm of reason. And it's not like the government has never sacrificed it's people in order to rile them up to support an unpopular war - it's pretty uncontroversial that the government knew of and allowed Pearl Harbor to happen in order to get the American people to go along with joining WWII. Why wouldn't they do something similar again?

Look, when detectives look for a murder suspect the first question they ask themselves is: Who had the motive to commit the crime? Who gained the most? In this case, it's fairly obvious who both had the motive and benefited enormously in their ability to not only involve the U.S. in war which would have been impossible to carry out, but to roll back civil rights to the point where they're legalizing torture??! No f***ing way, and you know it, and I know it, and anyone who hasn't been brainwashed by Faux "News" knows it. (Here�fs a timeline outlining Bush administration players, PNAC, etc. and their efforts to roll out this American Hegemony plan: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20050518223342591)

That being said, I repeat, there's not enough evidence to convict Bush et. al. of actually perpetrating that particular crime but it is very suspicious what did happen... or did not happen as the case may be. I'm not going to go into it now since I have other fish to fry today and it's been gone over both here and elsewhere (here's a site to check out: http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20041221155307646). As far as my personal feelings, I think we just don�ft know how much involvement the Bush regime had but it�fs fairly obvious, looking at the facts, that something was up.

But I�fm curious, why exactly are you so offended? I�fm assuming it�fs because you have some sort of faith in the government, that you believe its true purpose, which often gets perverted due to �ghuman nature�h or individual weaknesses, is to serve the people. Is this true?

[Papercut]

Originally posted by Shinsuke
oh brother, that is absolutely absurd.

To a survivor of the holocuast your remarks would be obscene and distateful to a severe degree but to me their just perplexingly odd.
First off, to a holocaust survivor, my comments ring absolutely, horrifyingly true:

One of our neighbors is moving. I've been in this neighborhood for about six years now, but didn't really know them very well at all - just waves and nods, mostly.

So I heard the moving van pull up this morning. When I got home this evening I happened to spy my neighbor (he's like 85 years old - I don't know exactly, but he's old, talks and moves very slowly) standing on the sidewalk next to the van. I walked over and shook his hand, and we started talking. I asked him where he was moving, and he said, "Back to Germany."

I had been stationed in Germany for two years while in the military, so I lit up, and commented about how beautiful the country was, and inquired if he was going back because he missed it.

"No," he answered me. "I'm going back because I've seen this before."

He then commenced to explain that when he was a kid, he watched with his family in fear as Hitler's government committed atrocity after atrocity, and no one was willing to say anything. He said the news refused to question the government, and the ones who did were not in the newspaper business much longer. He said good neighbors, people he had known all his life, turned against his family and other Jews, grabbing on to the hate and superiority "as if they were starved for it" (his words).

He said he was too old to see it happen right in front of his eyes again, and too old to do anything about it, so he was taking his family back to Europe on Thursday where they would be safe from George W. Bush and his neocons. He seemed resolute, but troubled, nonetheless, as if being too young on one end and too old on the other to fight what he saw happening was wearing on him.

I gotta tell you - it was chilling. I let him talk, and the whole time, my gut was churning, like I had mutated butterflies in my stomach. When he was finished, he shook my hand, gripping it really hard, until his knuckles turned white and he was shaking. He looked me in the eyes, hard, and said, "I will pray for your family and your country." He let go of my hand and hobbled away.

I have related this event to you in the hopes it will serve as a cautionary anecdote about the state of our Union, and to illustrate the path we Americans are being led down by a group of fanatics bent on global economic and military dominion. When a man who survived the fruits of fascism decides its time to leave THIS country because he's seeing the same patterns that led to the Holocaust and other Nazi horrors beginning to form here, it is time for us to recognize the underlying evil inherent in the actions of those who claim they work for all Americans, and for all mankind. And it is in***bent upon all Americans, Red and Blue, Republican and Democrat, to stop them.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/3/134049/4163



Edit: I just got some work to do so I'll post a response to the rest of your points later.

[ZKK]

Originally posted by Papercut
I'm not saying he's Hitler of 1943, when all the death camps were in full swing, but he definitely could be likened to the Hitler of 1938. Below are some key nodal points in the process of Nazi Germany becoming the Nazi Germany we think of today:

Papercut, do you respect Jon Stewart at all? :p

If you want to compare Hitler as he was in 1938 to the present day George Bush, I'd suggest you compare the state of Germany in 1938 to the state of America in 2006 first - not the politics, but socioeconomics. Given that the international community pretty much put its boot into Germany after the First World War, I'd say it was a little more volatile than America today. On one hand you have a country whose currency had not long prior completely collapsed compared to a county whose currency is the benchmark for currencies worldwide. Even with the bleak lifestyle in Germany in those days, yes the people were a little easily swayed in to putting their hope on a psychopath, but are you telling me that the American people with their cable tv in their living rooms and double garages for the two family cars will let Bush pull the same stunts Hitler did? I think not. From what I've been seeing, people are questioning his every action.

I'd have thought it more likely you'd have a civil war in America rather than it going the way of Nazi Germany.

Originally posted by Papercut
"No," he answered me. "I'm going back because I've seen this before."

If you'd like Papercut, I can run that past my grandfather and see if he has the same sentiment.

[Gaelin]

As for the Death camps I think you needs to read some books from Holocaust survivors these little Guitmo thingys plae in comparison. At guitmo their idea of torcher is water boarding and being put in cold rooms with loud music. You know what it was in Auswitch? Gas chambers, starvion, doctors expiremtns,rape and crematories. At Guantamo at least the prisoners are given food and shelter they don't have to do hours of hard labor either. WHat do we get in turn for it incidents like the one a few months ago where a man played dead on a rope when peronsal rushed to see if he was alive they slipped in a coating of poop, semen, and urine. I think most prisoners would prefer isolated cases of sexual humiliation and dogs barking in their faces to being burned alive.

This caught my eye for several reasons. Back in the holocaust heyday, the only people truly aware of the torture present in the death camps were the prisoners who were tortured, and the torturers themselves (including high-level govt. officials who were ordering the torture, death, and experiments). So why should it be any different for us? Just because we don't hear about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. Governments are notorious for lying by omission, but it's still lying. And none of us really know the extent of what goes on in these places because none of us have been there.

I'd rather be burned alive any day than be beaten to a pulp and handcuffed to a railing for several hours, only then to be taken down and sexually assaulted with a baton to the point of serious internal injury, or bitten by angry dogs. There is absolutely no excuse for treating someone that way under our constitution.

[Derillion]

Originally posted by ZKK
but are you telling me that the American people with their cable tv in their living rooms and double garages for the two family cars will let Bush pull the same stunts Hitler did? I think not. From what I've been seeing, people are questioning his every action.

IMO this is exactly why it can happen ... the illusion that we are getting all sides of it. We have whackjobs on the left telling us one thing and whckjobs on the right telling us the exact opposite all in real-time. Meanwhile all the important stuff is being flown under the radar.

And because we can't believe that the things that sound so bad are actually happening, or that they aren't happening to the degree that we hear about. We shrug it off and allow craziness to pass. This bill will in essence allow any non-citizen who poses a "threat" to be tortured.

Regardless of how you defend it or how you want to sugarcoat it, that is what the bill says.

Now as I've stated in the past, I don't really care. The world could all go down and I wouldn't be too upset. I think the human race has become too big for it's britches and needs a reset anyway.

lrn2swim imo.

[Papercut]

Originally posted by Shinsuke
#1 Hitler in 1938 was a MONSTER. He was planning the attack on Poland which he knew would result in tens of thousands of deaths, his sole reason conquest? In addition Jews and those unfortunate enough to defy Hitler were already in slave programs building the German Olympic stadium and many less noteable grandiose building projects. Hitler by 1938 had corrupted millions of children in his "Hitler youth" and instated his occult-Religon in whic he was god and his advisors such as Himmler were reincarnated Germanic heroes and minor gods( Himmler belived he was reincarnated from an anceint Germanic hero). Hitler had proclaimed all his racist teachings and his SS made life miserable most Jews already.

Actually, Hitler's goal, even his weird thing for Jewish people, was about German hegemony over the world. That's it. Yes, he had some strange personal quirks but when you look at how he was backed and supported by the German ruling elite �Eincluding his farcical trial for having attempted to stage a coup!!! - you can see how, without the backing of a significant and powerful section of the ruling elite he never would have been more than the crank leader of a crank group.

He attempted to commit what is considered by any state to be an act of treason and yet the ruling elite made sure that he got a sympathetic judge, jury and platform, via favorable news articles, from which to lie to the German people! And when he was sentenced to prison, a sentence the judge had to give him, given the seriousness of his crime, where did they send him? To the cushy country-club type "prison"where he wrote Mein Kampf.

My point is, the German ruling elite decided at that time that what the country needed in order to become a global power was someone like Hitler, a fascist. And that's why that section at least protected and promoted him. Of course there were sections of the German ruling elite who believed that the outright suspension democracy was dangerous, much the same way that people like Al Gore and Colin Powell do, but, as now, they were easily pushed to the side because they didn't have a robust enough program to provide the German ruling class in place of fascism. And the same exact thing is happening right now.

As for the Death camps I think you needs to read some books from Holocaust survivors these little Guitmo thingys plae in comparison. At guitmo their idea of torcher is water boarding and being put in cold rooms with loud music. You know what it was in Auswitch? Gas chambers, starvion, doctors expiremtns,rape and crematories. At Guantamo at least the prisoners are given food and shelter they don't have to do hours of hard labor either. WHat do we get in turn for it incidents like the one a few months ago where a man played dead on a rope when peronsal rushed to see if he was alive they slipped in a coating of poop, semen, and urine. I think most prisoners would prefer isolated cases of sexual humiliation and dogs barking in their faces to being burned alive.

With all due respect your claims are outrageos and need to be evaluated ESPECIALLY eqauting Guantanamo to the HOlocasut I mean comon papercut even you can't seriously except that comparison?

Again (and again and again and again) I will repeat: They are not the same as the concentration camps of 1941, however they certainly are the concentration camps of 1933. Again I'll re-post the following quote:

Dachau, one of the first Nazi concentration camps, opened in March 1933, and at first interned only known political opponents of the Nazis: Communists, Social Democrats, and others who had been condemned in a court of law. Gradually, a more diverse group was imprisoned, including Jews, Jehovah's Witnesses, Gypsies , dissenting clergy, ****sexuals, as well as others who were denounced for making critical remarks about the Nazis.

Six death or extermination camps were constructed in Poland. These so-called death factories were Auschwitz-Birkenau, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, Lublin (also called Majdanek ), and Chelmno. The primary purpose of these camps was the methodical killing of millions of innocent people. The first, Chelmno, began operating in late 1941. The others began their operations in 1942.

(http://fcit.usf.edu/holocaust/timeline/camps.htm).

The situation we're in today, with, yes, concentration camps where political prisoners are now legally able to be tortured, without any sort of legal counsel or even their families knowing where they are, without them even knowing what crime they're being tortured for, WILL lead to the death camps of 1941. People don't pass laws legalizing torture just so they can frame it and hang it on their wall�Ethey pass such laws so they can use them.

[Papercut]

Originally posted by Derillion
whackjobs on the left  

:p

Actually I agree with most of the rest of your post - it amazes me that there wasn't a f***ing riot the day after that f***ing bill was passed! I mean seriously, what will it take to wake people up!!!!

Except the part about only non-citizens being tortured. Check the bill out again - your citizenship won't protect you. Sorry.

How do I put this in words as clearly as possible. If the U.S. government decides, for reasons of its own, that you are an "illegal enemy combatant," i.e. that you are someone who "has engaged in hostilities or who has purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the United States," they can detain you without charges indefinitely, granting you no legal recourse except to a military tribunal, and, under the proposed bill, "disappear" and torture you. This is not just restricted to aliens or foreigners, but applies to U.S. citizens as well. It can happen anywhere in the U.S. at any time. We are all at potential risk.

http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/09/legalizing_tyra.html

Gaelin: I agree with most of what you wrote, and certainly your sentiment, but I'd have to say that either is horrible and unacceptable in a civilized society :x

Originally posted by ZKK
Papercut, do you respect Jon Stewart at all? :p

I don't care  Don't get me wrong, I love Jon but just because you like and respect people doesn't mean they're Jesus Christ.

If you want to compare Hitler as he was in 1938 to the present day George Bush, I'd suggest you compare the state of Germany in 1938 to the state of America in 2006 first - not the politics, but socioeconomics. Given that the international community pretty much put its boot into Germany after the First World War, I'd say it was a little more volatile than America today. On one hand you have a country whose currency had not long prior completely collapsed compared to a county whose currency is the benchmark for currencies worldwide. Even with the bleak lifestyle in Germany in those days, yes the people were a little easily swayed in to putting their hope on a psychopath, but are you telling me that the American people with their cable tv in their living rooms and double garages for the two family cars will let Bush pull the same stunts Hitler did? I think not. From what I've been seeing, people are questioning his every action.

I'd have thought it more likely you'd have a civil war in America rather than it going the way of Nazi Germany.

Um, they just passed a bill legalizing torture, permitting testimony based on torture, legalizing jailing (and torturing people) without informing them of what they're being charged with, and permitting people to be jailed and tortured based on second and third hand testimony. And no one's doing anything that's anywhere near commensurate with what is probably the worst violation of democracy since Nazi Germany!

From the statement WCW put in the New York Times today:

"Can't the United States see that when we allow someone to be tortured by our agents, it is not only the victim and the perpetrator who are corrupted, not only the "intelligence" that is contaminated, but also everyone who looked away and said they did not know, everyone who consented tacitly to that outrage so they could sleep a little safer at night, all the citizens who did not march in the streets by the millions to demand the resignation of whoever suggested, even whispered, that torture is inevitable in our day and age, that we must embrace its darkness?

Ariel Dorfman, "Are We Really So Fearful?"

They're like a frog or lobster being slowly boiled alive, slow enough that they're not jumping out of the pot I think - they don't realize how far to fascism we've already come. Others are afraid and are paralyzed by that fear because they don't see a mass movement out there and don't want to get singled out for attack by this regime. Others, mostly progressive, are still locked in the old electoral politics trap and are hoping the Dems will "grow a backbone" (when the Dems are as much a part of the U.S. ruling elite as the Repubs are.) It's complicated, but unless we get a mass movement going, we really are going to end up in a horrible place.

If you'd like Papercut, I can run that past my grandfather and see if he has the same sentiment.

That would be awesome  One question tho Â�Ewhat are his political tendencies? Is he a raging right wing reactionary? Even if he was it wouldn't mean he has nothing valid to say, but it's always good to know where people are coming from when you look at what they say.

[Jeff B]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUzUljH8EHU

papercut i think that you will like that video.

keith olbermann is the man, a true patriot.  he has been very vocal about his discontent with the ****ty policies and actions of the current administration, and about once a week he has a special investigation.  this came on last night and i thought i'd post here for everyone to see.

[MadOmen]

Im feeling to lazy to read this thread through properly just now, but did I just see justification for Guantanemo bay and modern torture because it's 'not as bad as Auschwitz'?
Thats really reassuring. When you get called into one of these places and they start beating your head with gun butts, just think 'phew, at least its not auschwitz!'

****, I bet that sort of sentiment comes along with the 'women who get raped deserved it' one.